tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post1086450128836448831..comments2024-03-22T15:15:09.943-04:00Comments on Lionel Deimel’s Web Log: Waldo on LawrenceLionel Deimelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-76820168151126382002011-10-31T14:30:04.331-04:002011-10-31T14:30:04.331-04:00Excellent analysis as usual. I have found a distu...Excellent analysis as usual. I have found a disturbing trend among radical conservatives. They use the results of an election as justification for their position if the vote goes their way. If the election goes against them, they are somehow justified in ignoring the results. <br /><br />Of course the answer is if you don't like the rules of the Episcopal Church, go to General Convention and try to get the votes to change them. I have attended the Diocese of Dallas's convention for several years and I have invariably voted on the losing side. Yet I maintain the validity of the vote, and I am subject to it. But then again I am not a conservative and therefore I have to accept the results of elections, period.Dallas Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03636139367169016741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-50192140240986036852011-10-31T10:58:37.874-04:002011-10-31T10:58:37.874-04:00David,
Thanks for the information. I knew where t...David,<br /><br />Thanks for the information. I knew where the phrase came from, by the way. General Convention did not see fit to add it to the BCP, however. Of course, that is no longer relevant for your church.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-67895840070976432692011-10-31T10:36:40.357-04:002011-10-31T10:36:40.357-04:00The addition to the BCP dismissal comes directly f...The addition to the BCP dismissal comes directly from 1 Corinthians 15:57. The BCP conflated the verse. <br /><br />St David's adopted this practice sometime in the 1980s as a result of its usage by the Cursillo movement in the Diocese of Pittsburgh.The Rev Canon Dr David Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09878281384587956210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-54785251573498797852011-10-30T20:03:49.301-04:002011-10-30T20:03:49.301-04:00I don’t doubt that Mark Lawrence wants to stay in ...I don’t doubt that Mark Lawrence wants to stay in The Episcopal Church. Moreover, should he be deposed, we would be left with a diocese more radical than its former bishop. Despite all the talk of Katharine Jefferts Schori’s being a tyrant, the reality is that there is little the church can do about the situation. The only real check against a diocese’s running off the rails is the power to withhold consents. In principle, though not likely in practice, the wider church could hold out until the diocese elects a bishop likely to move the diocese closer to the center.<br /><br />By the way, David, why <i>do</i> you add “who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ”?Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-28027288957721542462011-10-30T14:28:20.037-04:002011-10-30T14:28:20.037-04:00Two things:
I think Mark Lawrence really wants to...Two things:<br /><br />I think Mark Lawrence really wants to stay in TEC. Charging him and deposing will drive him out and why some leaders in TEC feel a need to do that baffles me. <br /><br />Secondly at St. David's we use both overhead slides and we add the "who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ". Oops!The Rev Canon Dr David Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09878281384587956210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-52351706267669340992011-10-30T11:39:04.605-04:002011-10-30T11:39:04.605-04:00Clearly, making minor changes to the liturgy or vi...Clearly, making minor changes to the liturgy or violating certain rubrics is hardly a serious offense, even if technically a presentable one. (Offering communion to the unbaptized is more serious.)<br /><br />That said, one of the joys of being an Episcopalian is being able to walk into an Episcopal church far from home and, because of the familiarity of the liturgy, feeling right at home. Messing with the liturgy diminishes this joy.<br /><br />Some changes are more upsetting than others. A priest’s naming both matriarchs and patriarchs is not too upsetting, though it will please some visitors and irritate others. More disconcerting are changes in text said by the people or by the people and celebrant. Such changes as the substitution of “God’s” for “his” may be a local convention that catches the visitor unawares or may actually appear in a printed service bulletin or—heaven forbid—on an overhead slide.<br /><br />Perhaps the most obnoxious change I have encountered is the addition of “who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” to “Thanks be to God” at the end of the service. The message this sends to visitors—to this visitor, at any rate—is <i>if you don’t know to say this, you are not one of us</i>.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-46623511754967461612011-10-30T07:21:37.360-04:002011-10-30T07:21:37.360-04:00When I was in seminary an older priest told me tha...When I was in seminary an older priest told me that he believed it was probably impossible to pass a week in the ministry of the church without fumbling a canon or rubric. Sometimes that is what you might call accidental--and other times I suppose, and this is often in the case of rubrical violations, it will simply be the case that the individual priest or bishop will determine his or her own judgment to trump the settled view of the whole church. We're a bunch of eccentrics. Liberal clergy decide they want to hear about a few matriarchs along with the patriarchs of Eucharistic Prayer C, Evangelicals tweak the eucharistic acclamation and the blessing over the water in the baptismal liturgy, and on and on. <br /><br />The best practice of our church for centuries has been the studied practice of not noticing. Making room for one another.<br /><br />I'm not arguing for laxity in matters of moral high seriousness or of ecclesial order. But the reality is that the bushel basket of accusations brought against +Mark seem to me to be truly counterproductive. A throwing of gasoline on the fire, and making things more likely to wrong in South Carolina, not less likely. <br /><br />Bishop Waldo and I would disagree on many topics, but I appreciate his letter, which I believe reflects a way of walking on the high road.<br /><br />Bruce RobisonBruce Robisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00193701138386039942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-9124621329795588592011-10-29T23:19:43.222-04:002011-10-29T23:19:43.222-04:00David,
They should be admonished to stop first, b...David,<br /><br />They should be admonished to stop first, but, yes, they could be charged. That open communion is a “liberal” thing does not make it acceptable from my point of view.<br /><br />I cannot condone liberals violating the canons if I dislike it in conservatives, can I?<br /><br />Perhaps we have found a rare point of agreement.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-83814054907230626732011-10-29T22:54:20.835-04:002011-10-29T22:54:20.835-04:00Thanks for expressing your opinion, Lionel, it is ...Thanks for expressing your opinion, Lionel, it is helpful to understand where you are coming from.<br /><br />Following your logic, then, all TEC bishops who do not enforce the clear canonical prohibitions against communion of those not baptized within their diocese need to be charged with violation of the canons.The Rev Canon Dr David Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09878281384587956210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-66284529165961215442011-10-29T16:48:34.495-04:002011-10-29T16:48:34.495-04:00"Ours is a church of theological diversity, b..."Ours is a church of theological diversity, but not of trustworthiness diversity."<br />Yup!<br /><br />It is interesting that Bp. Waldo does not object to the rejection of theological diversity so evident in Bp. Lawrence's writing and his diocese's actions.<br /><br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.com