tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post1601377869275823620..comments2024-03-22T15:15:09.943-04:00Comments on Lionel Deimel’s Web Log: Canadian Report Proves Text of Covenant SucksLionel Deimelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-32309098340488810652011-06-21T17:17:19.772-04:002011-06-21T17:17:19.772-04:00mike8464, no apology is necessary for me. I appre...mike8464, no apology is necessary for me. I appreciated the back and forth. Dialog may be difficult, but I believe it is necessary, and I thank you for taking the time for the discussion here.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-42184637789792076972011-06-21T17:12:54.664-04:002011-06-21T17:12:54.664-04:00Actually this dialog confirms how difficult it is ...Actually this dialog confirms how difficult it is to discuss the AC. I apologize for wasting your time on this board.mike8464https://www.blogger.com/profile/17976011272740851563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-39530826120180577192011-06-21T17:00:25.035-04:002011-06-21T17:00:25.035-04:00mike8464,
Conservatives have an exaggerated sense...mike8464,<br /><br />Conservatives have an exaggerated sense of persecution. If fact, they might have received more kind attention had they not concentrated on stealing Episcopal Church property. (Recall that I’m a member of the Diocese of Pittsburgh.) I’m not actually very sympathetic to the crocodile tears of conservatives.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-54279045933358121772011-06-21T16:34:21.354-04:002011-06-21T16:34:21.354-04:00I certainly respect the right of TEC to do what it...<i>I certainly respect the right of TEC to do what it wants and I respect its constitution but I do not understand why it has made so little effort to include conservatives.</i>.<br /><br />mike8464, I don't see TEC excluding conservatives. I see certain conservatives walking away, but I see none being excluded or expelled. I believe the church is enriched by diversity, and I am sad when conservatives leave. Although I may disagree with them, I wish they would stay with TEC.<br /><br />Rowan humble? Sorry, but I don't see the humility, I see arrogance when he attends our bishops' meeting and tells them how to run a church and arrives before the last GC to say what he wants done at our convention.<br /><br />You'd think Rowan's own church did not have serious problems and divisions enough to keep him occupied that he would not have time to meddle in the affairs of our church.<br /><br />The fact is that Rowan wants to move the Anglican Communion closer to the model of Rome with a stronger central authority. In this present time, to make the Church of Rome the model of how to be a church seems - what? - I can't think of a better word than insane.<br /><br />I'm a fan of the Via Media, which has its roots in the Elizabethan Settlement, and in which a diversity of opinion is welcomed and accommodated.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-66047720824117704072011-06-21T15:49:22.341-04:002011-06-21T15:49:22.341-04:00Being in a minority of one on this board, I would ...Being in a minority of one on this board, I would not expect much agreement on nomenclature. However, it does seem harsh to suggest the ++Rowan has made any claim to be infallible let alone pope. Everything I have read of his seems both humble and scholarly. Maybe the problem is mine but critics of the AC sound depressingly bad tempered as if there had been no Windsor Report or Resolution B033, no immediate statement by the LA Diocese and then the reversal of B033. I certainly respect the right of TEC to do what it wants and I respect its constitution but I do not understand why it has made so little effort to include conservatives. Respecting the situation of gays and lesbians was the proper thing to do IMHO, but for one who is in awe of the Elizabethan Settlement, losing the conservatives seems to me a mistake. The tension ++Rowan talks about was lost. Nor has the question of bisexuals or trans sexuals resolved.mike8464https://www.blogger.com/profile/17976011272740851563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-54001033124066668042011-06-20T21:18:02.488-04:002011-06-20T21:18:02.488-04:00mike8464,
Never before today have I heard anyone ...mike8464,<br /><br />Never before today have I heard anyone suggest that the Church of England and The Episcopal Church are not in full communion. We may not see eye-to-eye on everything, but it is simply not true that the churches view their communion as impaired. Of course, since neither full communion nor impaired communion seem to have any universally accepted definitions, you can call the relationship anything you like. Just don’t expect everyone else to accept your nomenclature.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-1581181071892976072011-06-20T18:39:20.308-04:002011-06-20T18:39:20.308-04:00...if I had the time, I could find ++Rowan's r...<i>...if I had the time, I could find ++Rowan's references to 'impaired communion'.</i><br /><br />mike8464, nevermind. It's quite possible that Rowan and I disagree on that point and other points, for that matter. He's not my pope (although I believe he may want to be), and the last I heard, he's not infallibile.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-67262111903764448822011-06-20T18:31:54.024-04:002011-06-20T18:31:54.024-04:00As I understand it, Canterbury does not welcome ce...As I understand it, Canterbury does not welcome certain TEC bishops, nor certain ordinations nor Sacramentally blessed same sex unions. I would say that communion is impaired at least as regards consecration and ordination. I am sure, if I had the time, I could find ++Rowan's references to 'impaired communion'.mike8464https://www.blogger.com/profile/17976011272740851563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-72878292490771254342011-06-20T18:11:51.772-04:002011-06-20T18:11:51.772-04:00Given that the present relationship between TEC an...<i>Given that the present relationship between TEC and Canterbury is one of impaired communion....</i><br /><br />mike8464, is your statement a given? So far as I know, the ABC will share at the communion table with members of TEC, which is what I consider to be "in communion".June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-91426263082501180702011-06-20T18:07:02.639-04:002011-06-20T18:07:02.639-04:00Given that the present relationship between TEC an...Given that the present relationship between TEC and Canterbury is one of impaired communion, am I correct to understand this reply to mean that you do not want any Anglican in the US to have full and unimpaired communion with Canterbury? If I am wrong, how would a US Anglican achieve full and unimpaired communion?mike8464https://www.blogger.com/profile/17976011272740851563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-55781154159056522382011-06-20T15:10:50.672-04:002011-06-20T15:10:50.672-04:00mike8464, those of us who oppose the covenant very...mike8464, those of us who oppose the covenant very much desire unity in the Body of Christ and in the Anglican Communion as a fellowship of autonomous churches.<br /><br /><i>...would it not make more sense for TEC simply to leave the Communion and let post colonial Christian mission deal with its world wide challenges.</i><br /><br />No. Sorry about that. We may get thrown out, but it's not likely we will leave on our own.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-91800515012538629142011-06-19T15:51:21.025-04:002011-06-19T15:51:21.025-04:00Easy to make of people, but very depressing to rea...Easy to make of people, but very depressing to read those opposed to the Anglican Communion. Since they are not interested in 'unity' and have deliberately alienated their conservative brothers, would it not make more sense for TEC simply to leave the Communion and let post colonial Christian mission deal with its world wide challenges. This would also let certain Americans, and I suppose Canadians, be in full communion.mike8464https://www.blogger.com/profile/17976011272740851563noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-34084017971433829812011-06-18T20:50:05.092-04:002011-06-18T20:50:05.092-04:00On awaits the announcement by the Rev. Dr. Alyson ...On awaits the announcement by the Rev. Dr. Alyson Barnett-Cowan ( Director for Unity, Faith and Order in the Anglican Communion Office) that the eminent Canadian lawyers and theologians have not read the covenant.<br /><br />That is after all her consistent refrain in her effort to get that pointed hat.<br /><br />FWIW<br />jimBJimBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17312606954135884910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-20481205359794790462011-06-18T10:56:25.179-04:002011-06-18T10:56:25.179-04:00Alan,
Thanks for the correction about the authors...Alan,<br /><br />Thanks for the correction about the authors of the Canadian report. Clearly, I read the early pages more carefully than the last few pages. I saw the author names, but they obviously didn’t register.<br /><br />The issue of whether the Covenant establishes “doctrine” can be a serious issue elsewhere. For example, Bishop Walter Righter was exonerated for ordaining a gay man because it was decided that no “core doctrine” of The Episcopal Church had been violated.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see the theological report from the Anglican Church of Canada, but the report will be something of an anticlimax. If the legal issues are muddled, it doesn’t matter what the theological issues are; the Covenant should be rejected.Lionel Deimelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08363018512775944659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-72900521051696546942011-06-18T08:39:21.710-04:002011-06-18T08:39:21.710-04:00Three points on the Canadian document:
1) The aut...Three points on the Canadian document:<br /><br />1) The authors are not unnamed. They are listed toward the end of the full report. They include David Phillip Jones, QC, an expert in Administrative Law and Chancellor of the General Synod; also Archdeacon Harry Huskins, who holds an LLM in Canon Law (Cardiff); and other notable figures.<br /><br />2) The legal analysis inevitably focuses on section 4 of the Covenant. There is a theological analysis still to come, which I assume will focus more on sections 1-3.<br /><br />3) I have raised many of the same issues as the legal analysis on <a href="http://alantperry.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">"my blog</a> over the last six months.<br /><br />Finally, I think the constitutional section can still be read profitably by non-Canadians, though some parts of it will need to be parsed differently outside Canada. The issue with respect to whether the Covenantis "doctrine" has clear constitutional implications for Canada which are spelled out in the report. It's not so much a theological question here as a canonical one.Alan T Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11700037716579004059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3320087.post-75351030368730493412011-06-18T01:21:45.809-04:002011-06-18T01:21:45.809-04:00Perhaps they are only sending it to the House of B...Perhaps they are only sending it to the House of Bishops' secret theology committee? I guess they do not want to frighten the Communion Partner Dioceses, but having said it is done, it does more harm to withhold it.Mike R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13353965540906520514noreply@blogger.com